History · Symposium

Must progress involve loss of what came before?

CDMFTSDFCharles Darwin, Michele Foucault, Thomas S. Kuhn and David F. Noble in conversation

4 great minds take up one question — each argues in their own voice and answers the others. Read the exchange, then chat with any of them yourself.

CD
Charles DarwinChat →

The notion of "progress" often implies a steady march towards perfection, yet the history of life on Earth offers a far more intricate narrative. I contend that adaptation, not inherent improvement, is the engine of change; forms diverge and flourish based on their suitability to local conditions. Consequently, what may appear as a "loss" from one perspective is merely a redirection of existing structures and functions towards new, advantageous roles, a process intrinsically tied to the elimination of those less fit for their environment.

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**Alfred Russel Wallace (1823–1913; biogeography, evolution)**

Darwin's emphasis on local adaptation is well taken. However, one might argue that certain highly specialized forms, perfected for a particular niche, *do* represent a kind of loss when that niche disappears. A creature exquisitely adapted to a single food source, for instance, faces utter extinction should that source vanish. This suggests that specialization, a marvel of natural selection, carries within it an inherent vulnerability, a fragility that could be interpreted as a "loss of potential" for broader survival.

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**Charles Darwin**

Indeed, Wallace, the vulnerability of extreme specialization is a critical observation. The fossil record offers countless examples of forms that, having achieved a remarkable degree of perfection in their own way, vanished entirely when environmental shifts rendered their adaptations obsolete. However, this is not a loss of "progress" in the grand scheme, but rather the natural consequence of rigorous selection. The extinction of a specialized form may clear the way for others, perhaps less specialized but more broadly adaptable, to rise and diversify. It is the continuous divergence and modification, the intricate web of life, rather than any single line of advance, that represents the enduring power of natural selection. The "loss" is for the individual lineage, but the system as a whole demonstrates a remarkable resilience and capacity for re-invention.

MF
Michele FoucaultChat →

It is not a matter of whether "progress" necessitates the obliteration of what came before, but of understanding the discontinuous ruptures and transformations within knowledge systems. We do not ascend a linear scale of perfection. Instead, certain ways of knowing, of seeing, of speaking—certain "epistemes"—are displaced by others. What appears as "loss" is often the forgetting of certain archives, the silencing of particular discourses, the occlusion of specific forms of subjectivity. The advent of new scientific paradigms does not simply add to old knowledge; it reconfigures the very conditions under which knowledge is produced and validated, rendering previous frameworks unintelligible or, at best, marginal.

TS
Thomas S. KuhnChat →

The very notion of "loss" when science progresses is a peculiar philosophical imposition. My work, examining episodes like the Ptolemaic to Copernican transition, reveals not a simple discarding of old knowledge, but a profound shift in the very framework of understanding. When the Aristotelian cosmos, with its intricate spheres and crystalline heavens, was superseded, it wasn't that the mathematical calculations of epicycles were deemed mere errors. Rather, the fundamental assumptions about the universe's structure, the very *nature* of celestial motion, changed so drastically that the old solutions became irrelevant, even nonsensical.

Foucault speaks of "discontinuous ruptures" and "displacement," and this resonates deeply. The transition to a new paradigm isn't an addition of data points; it's a revolution that redraws the map. The questions that once were paramount, the puzzles that occupied normal science, often vanish entirely under the new regime. The adherents of the old order, the ones committed to its way of problem-solving, can no longer find fertile ground for their investigations, much like the Ptolemaic astronomers found their elaborate constructions ill-suited to the emerging heliocentric worldview. This is not necessarily a "loss" in the sense of a diminishment, but a redirection, a reorientation of scientific attention driven by a fundamentally altered perception of reality.

DF
David F. NobleChat →

The very question of "progress" in technology is a deliberate obfuscation, a carefully constructed ideology designed to legitimize the power of those who wield it. What we are taught to call progress—automation, for instance—is not an inevitable march towards a better future, but a series of social choices, historically driven by the imperatives of capital and the military state. These choices have consistently resulted in the deskilling and disciplining of labor, the concentration of wealth and power, and the alienation of human beings from their own creative capacities. This was not a natural evolution; it was a social project of immense consequence, consciously undertaken to subdue the unpredictability of the human worker and maximize managerial control.

Kuhn speaks of "revolution" and "redrawn maps" in science, and I see a parallel in the realm of production. The technological shifts he describes, though perhaps internally driven by scientific puzzle-solving, have been harnessed by the capitalist enterprise to fundamentally alter social relations. Consider the mechanization of craft production: this was not merely a more efficient way to make things; it was a deliberate strategy to strip artisans of their autonomy, to break down complex skills into simple, repetitive tasks that could be performed by a disciplined workforce under constant surveillance. This was a conscious act of social engineering, masquerading as a technological inevitability.

The Darwinian framework, while illuminating natural selection, risks an unwarranted leap when applied to human technological development. While adaptation is certainly a factor, the "fitness" in our context is not determined by survival in nature, but by profitability and control in the marketplace. What appears as "loss" from the perspective of the worker—the loss of skill, of autonomy, of dignified labor—is precisely the "gain" sought by those who deploy these technologies. Wallace’s observation about specialization’s vulnerability applies here as well; when a technology, designed for maximum extraction of surplus value, becomes obsolete, the "loss" is borne by society, while the architects of the system have already moved on to the next profitable venture.

CD
Charles DarwinChat →

The observation by Noble regarding the distinct drivers of "progress" in technological systems versus the natural world is crucial. While both are processes of change, the former is undeniably shaped by human intention, by deliberate choices favoring specific ends—profit, control, efficiency—often at the expense of other values. This is fundamentally different from the blind, undirected forces of natural selection. The "loss" in technological displacement, for instance, is not an incidental outcome of a niche's disappearance, but often the direct consequence of a calculated strategy to render existing human capacities obsolete for the purpose of maximizing managerial oversight and capital accumulation. In nature, a lineage perishes when it can no longer compete; in human industry, entire skills and modes of being are often *made* to perish.

MF
Michele FoucaultChat →

The question of whether "progress" entails loss is, for me, a misdirection. It presumes a teleology of betterment that I do not see at work in the historical formations of knowledge or power. What we perceive as "loss" when a new scientific paradigm emerges, as Kuhn aptly describes, is less about the abandonment of error and more about the closure of specific discursive possibilities. Consider the shift from classifying madness through moral or religious frameworks to its medicalization: the "loss" was not of a more accurate understanding, but of the very categories and institutions that allowed for a different kind of experience and response to madness. The archive shrinks, and with it, certain ways of being human are dislodged from the dominant discourse.

TS
Thomas S. KuhnChat →

The notion of "loss" in scientific progress is itself a symptom of an overly linear view. When the Ptolemaic system was ultimately set aside, it was not as though the precise, almost artistic, calculations of epicycles were simply *wrong* in themselves. They were mathematically sound within their given framework. What vanished was the *relevance* of that framework. The transition from Ptolemy to Copernicus did not simply add a new fact; it fundamentally altered the conceptual landscape, making the old problem-solving tools obsolete, not because they were imperfect, but because they were no longer *applicable* to the new, and now more compelling, picture of the cosmos. The "loss" is to the practitioners of the old normal science, whose life's work, while previously valuable, finds no purchase in the new order.

DF
David F. NobleChat →

The idea that technological "progress" is akin to the adaptation in Darwin's biological systems, or a mere paradigm shift in Kuhn's scientific revolutions, fundamentally misunderstands its nature. Unlike natural evolution or scientific discovery, which may be complex and multi-directional, technological advancement in our era is overwhelmingly a *social project* driven by the pursuit of power and profit. The deskilling of the artisan, for instance, was not an incidental consequence of more efficient tools, but a deliberate strategic choice to render labor more controllable and less costly. This was a social relation—managerial dominance over craft—frozen into mechanization, and it inherently involves the obliteration of prior forms of human competence and dignity, not their benign displacement.